Look at the turnover!

[Deleted]

Aug 23, 2016 5:57:44 GMT -6 AlexM said:

that is the worst, shows how we didnt have good material to begin with or coaches to develop it

That was a huge part of the problem and the other was the lack of a fit for the schemes Fox and his staff want to run.

We already know that JA and his scouting staff were horrible at evaluating offensive talent as evidenced by that fact that he never could draft a decent OL.  The one that got us to the SB was basically Kruetz and 4 FAs.  Another major flaw was his continued insistence that Devin Hester was capable of being a #1 WR simply because he paid him like one.  The defense managed to keep some of Lovie's teams competitive but eventually his loyalty to those few vets who were beginning to age left the cupboard bare of any highly developed backups to replace them.

I don't even want to get into Emery except to say that in my entire history as a Bears fan I can't think of a more unsuitable GM/HC combination than Emery and Trestman.  Neither had the proper NFL experience for the job they held and both were living in a dream world of out of the box thinking in a league where that kind of thing is seldom rewarded.  It's a copy cat league not a venue for much original thinking.  Not since the 1940's at any rate when Halas introduced T-Formation Offenses.  It's a highly scripted game and he who has the best talent usually wins.

Since it's not uncommon for GMs and HCs to favor their own draft picks and FAs over those of the previous regime I'm sure we'll continue to see turnover each year with it slowing a bit now that we have two drafts and two UFA periods under our belt but in the end very few of Emery's picks or signings will remain because many simply don't fit and others just aren't that good.

[Deleted]

Aug 23, 2016 6:58:36 GMT -6 riczaj01 said:

Aug 23, 2016 6:40:00 GMT -6 @bearsinhouston said:

Well, since the coaches pick the players with the GMs, bad coaches take years to recover from.

Ya but the gm did hit on a few...long jeffery fuller carey. Just goes to show coaches cannot "coach up" talent its either there or its not...at best they can merely put them in the right scheme.

True but so far Long and Jeffery are the only two "difference makers" left from Emery's drafts.  Carey is a very nice "contributor" type guy and something tells me Kyle Fuller is never gonna pan out at CB and won't reach his potential until someone moves him to FS.  Whether it's the Bears or not is undetermined so far.

[shark86]

Aug 23, 2016 11:04:29 GMT -6 @soulman said:

Aug 23, 2016 5:57:44 GMT -6 AlexM said:

that is the worst, shows how we didnt have good material to begin with or coaches to develop it

That was a huge part of the problem and the other was the lack of a fit for the schemes Fox and his staff want to run.

We already know that JA and his scouting staff were horrible at evaluating offensive talent as evidenced by that fact that he never could draft a decent OL.  The one that got us to the SB was basically Kruetz and 4 FAs.  Another major flaw was his continued insistence that Devin Hester was capable of being a #1 WR simply because he paid him like one.  The defense managed to keep some of Lovie's teams competitive but eventually his loyalty to those few vets who were beginning to age left the cupboard bare of any highly developed backups to replace them.

I don't even want to get into Emery except to say that in my entire history as a Bears fan I can't think of a more unsuitable GM/HC combination than Emery and Trestman.  Neither had the proper NFL experience for the job they held and both were living in a dream world of out of the box thinking in a league where that kind of thing is seldom rewarded.  It's a copy cat league not a venue for much original thinking.  Not since the 1940's at any rate when Halas introduced T-Formation Offenses.  It's a highly scripted game and he who has the best talent usually wins.

Since it's not uncommon for GMs and HCs to favor their own draft picks and FAs over those of the previous regime I'm sure we'll continue to see turnover each year with it slowing a bit now that we have two drafts and two UFA periods under our belt but in the end very few of Emery's picks or signings will remain because many simply don't fit and others just aren't that good.

Agreed, but wasn't the 46 a new innovation we developed? Emery/Trestman was the worst. I can't think of a worse combo in the history of football in the NFL. Either one by himself was bad enough. What's the word, symbiosis? Where the partnership is better than the individuals? They were the opposite of that.

[Deleted]

Aug 23, 2016 7:02:20 GMT -6 dachuckster said:

This is why I instantly became a fan of Pace's BPA system. We had (and to a certain extent still have) such a lack of talent and depth on the roster, Pace had to draft BPA.

Even next year, if there is a stud DB, TE, RB, etc available versus a developmental QB, I can see Pace passing on the QB.

I still want us to draft a QB but we have Cutler on a year by year rental for the next 3 to 4 years so I can see why the back office and coaching staff would go for other positions.

As am I.  It may take a year or two longer to build a championship team that way but IMHO you always want to be drafting "impact type players" whenever possible over simply filling a position with the best on the board at that position.  That was the JA way to doing things and he was wrong in his assessments far more than he was right.  Contrast that to Pace whose been right far more than he's been wrong.

Like I posted before NFL football has become a highly scripted game in which even the various positions have a certain value going into any draft.  What I mean by that is the 4th or 5th best WR will almost always get taken before the best OC or SS and these days many quality RB don't get taken before the middle rounds.  So you can still find good quality "core type players" later in the draft but the "impact" guys will be gone by the end of the first round in most drafts and sometimes sooner than that.

What has Pace done in his two drafts so far relative to his first pick?  There's no denying both players have the potential to be "impact players".  Even though White and Floyd were somewhat raw coming into the NFL a 6'3" WR with 4.3 speed can easily be another Randy Moss and a skinny LB with some pretty good football skills and 4.6 speed off the edge could easily be developed into that "sack machine" we've lacked.  No doubt there were other option who might have contributed more quickly but in Pace's estimation they lacked the upside of these two.

There's an old saying in the stock market that you make your money by buying right and you collect when you sell. I think that's similar to the approach Pace is using.  He's buying great talent and investing in them based on what they can become under the coaching staff we have now.  It just takes awhile to get there so a little more patience is needed.  It's even paid off with a few vets.  Cutler is playing the best football he's ever played since coming to Chicago now that they've committed to building around his unique skills and staying away from what he does poorly.

[riczaj01]

Aug 23, 2016 11:10:26 GMT -6 @soulman said:

Aug 23, 2016 6:58:36 GMT -6 riczaj01 said:

Ya but the gm did hit on a few...long jeffery fuller carey. Just goes to show coaches cannot "coach up" talent its either there or its not...at best they can merely put them in the right scheme.

True but so far Long and Jeffery are the only two "difference makers" left from Emery's drafts.  Carey is a very nice "contributor" type guy and something tells me Kyle Fuller is never gonna pan out at CB and won't reach his potential until someone moves him to FS.  Whether it's the Bears or not is undetermined so far.

It's funny b/c Hub has said from day 1 that he thought Fuller would be a better S then a CB b/c of his style of play and limitations. If so, I hope the Bears figure it out before another team does.

[Deleted]

Aug 23, 2016 7:15:50 GMT -6 germansbombedph said:

we sucked, we needed a rebuild and some wanted to Keep those guys from the past. I say they weren't successful and we needed a new culture. If guys are still good it won't matter. Problem is nobody wants Cutler

But Cutler isn't our problem and in reality he never has been.  He isn't and probably never will be a top five QB but that's just it.  There are only five top five QBs in the NFL period and with the next 10-15 you can damn near throw their jersey's in a pile, pick one, and you'll have a quality QB but not a true difference maker in the sense that a Brady, or a Rodgers are or a Manning was for so many years.

Cutler and maybe 10 others are in the bunch where from year to year they've had good seasons and bad ones.  Look at Eli Manning.  He's won two SBs but how well has he played recently?  Joe Flacco won a SB and he's struggled.  Drew Brees is still a top five guy IMHO but his team has disintegrated around him due to poor cap management that has cost NOLA it's best core players.  Philip Rivers is a pretty good QB whose never even been to a SB let alone won one.

It's just not as easy to draft and develop a top five type QB as many believe it is.  The Andrew Lucks only come along once every 5 to 10 years and if you aren't picking #1 overall you won't get a shot at that player.  With the rest it's mostly a crap shoot.  Just look at some of those other QBs who have been top ten or top twenty picks and tell me which ones are playing like top five passers.  There are none or at least none who have done it consistently year in year out like a Brady or an Aaron Rodgers.

It's way past time to get over the Cutler thing, accept that he's gonna be around for at least one or two more years and hope that as he's maturing both as a person and an NFL QB that he rises to the occasion like many other SB winners have done in their mid to late 30s.  He may not be the prettiest girl at the dance but he's not the ugliest either and he's still better than no date at all.  Or we could see if Todd Collins or Caleb Hanie would like to come back.

[Deleted]

Aug 23, 2016 11:44:04 GMT -6 riczaj01 said:

Aug 23, 2016 11:10:26 GMT -6 @soulman said:

True but so far Long and Jeffery are the only two "difference makers" left from Emery's drafts.  Carey is a very nice "contributor" type guy and something tells me Kyle Fuller is never gonna pan out at CB and won't reach his potential until someone moves him to FS.  Whether it's the Bears or not is undetermined so far.

It's funny b/c Hub has said from day 1 that he thought Fuller would be a better S then a CB b/c of his style of play and limitations. If so, I hope the Bears figure it out before another team does.

I've seen that too and I've been saying it ever since his rookie year.  When he's playing facing the QB all of his skills come into play.  His range, his anticipation, his game speed, his hitting and tackling ability and so on.  But ask him to play with his back to the play and you might as well be asking a natural right hand batter to bat left handed.  He's uncomfortable playing that way.

Part of this isn't his fault because Emery drafted him as a Cover 2 zone type CB and now he's being asked to learn to play man and press coverage.  I still think the kid is as natural a FS as we've had since Mark Carrier and maybe just maybe if Hall and one of these other young guys step up and shows better as a cover corner they may finally move him to FS.  My concern is they won't, they'll release him, and some other team will do it and end up with a good football player.

[Deleted]

Aug 23, 2016 7:18:02 GMT -6 dachuckster said:

Aug 23, 2016 7:07:28 GMT -6 AlexM said:

im all for BPA all the way, BUT QB is an entirely different animal, we should draft one each year (until we hit) in the top 3, maybe 4 rounds

I agree.  I would like to see us take a QB in the first 3 or 4 rounds for the next 2 or 3 year.  Until we find someone to replace Cutler.  Regardless if you like Jay or not, he is in his 30s and will need to be replaced sometime before the end of his current contract at the end of the 2020 season.

Or he plays out his deal and we actually do win a championship with him.  He's 33 now which makes him 38 in 2020.  That's not exactly over the hill or done for good with many NFL QBs these days.  Hell Brady is 39 now and wants to play until they have to cart him off the field and bury him in the end zone.  Cutler's age isn't as big a deal as many would like to make it.

I don't deny the need to find a young QB and begin to develop him and we will.  If Brady won't move on any time soon and Garoppolo shows some talent in another year or so Pace may offer to trade for him.  He's one guy I wish we could have drafted.  Somewhere along the line the right guy will show up and either be there when we draft or we'll take him off someone's waiver wire like we did Shaw but it's way too early for panic to set in.

[AlexM]

I just want to say something, I missed you soulman

[AlexM]

these are the kind of posts that are priceless, i just stop doing anything else, take my time and read... think. usually read twice, enjoy