State of the Bears - Hoge, Jahns, Fishbane & Cronin (great)

[JABF]

This is really good and worth listening to.  They talk about a LOT of things.  Just one is about how Caleb is getting sucked into the mismanaged QB cycle that ate up Mitch Trubisky, Justin Fields.  They talk about the damage being done that can break your QB.  They bring up some good points about how a guy can get damaged in a way he never fully recovers - "... that's the same old Bears thing."  Caleb is now 1/8th of the way into his rookie contract.  This year's offense is WORSE than last year's in almost every statistical category - worse.  How do you add all of this offense firepower and get worse?  Yes, part of it is the OL, a big part.  But it is also coaching.  They also brought up that Shane Waldron was on track to be fired by Seattle before they dumped Pete Caroll. 

Caleb is getting the crap beat out of him and he's in a horrific offense that has zero chance of working here. 

The players on offense are not stupid... they know the coaching is in a death spiral and 'Flus is going to self-preservation turtle-mode talking gibberish word salad stuff in the recent press conferences.  The players are having their own meetings (sounds like they are really emotional meetings too).  At the very least the franchise is wasting a season with the best QB they've had here in (arguably) the past 50 or 60 years.  Worst case they are damaging this investment in Caleb.  They also bring up the point that this is beginning to reflect badly on Poles (Eberflus, Waldron hires).  mpbears68 called this right after last season... Eberflus should have been fired then.  This entire mess is now a train wreck that is not going to get better.  It is going to get worse (can you imagine what the Green Bay game will look like in 11 days?  And the killer schedule after that game?  

[bearsinhouston]

Nov 6, 2024 21:07:09 GMT -6 JABF said:

This is really good and worth listening to.  They talk about a LOT of things.  Just one is about how Caleb is getting sucked into the mismanaged QB cycle that ate up Mitch Trubisky, Justin Fields.  They talk about the damage being done that can break your QB.  They bring up some good points about how a guy can get damaged in a way he never fully recovers - "... that's the same old Bears thing."  Caleb is now 1/8th of the way into his rookie contract.  This year's offense is WORSE than last year's in almost every statistical category - worse.  How do you add all of this offense firepower and get worse?  Yes, part of it is the OL, a big part.  But it is also coaching.  They also brought up that Shane Waldron was on track to be fired by Seattle before they dumped Pete Caroll. 

Caleb is getting the crap beat out of him and he's in a horrific offense that has zero chance of working here. 

The players on offense are not stupid... they know the coaching is in a death spiral and 'Flus is going to self-preservation turtle-mode talking gibberish word salad stuff in the recent press conferences.  The players are having their own meetings (sounds like they are really emotional meetings too).  At the very least the franchise is wasting a season with the best QB they've had here in (arguably) the past 50 or 60 years.  Worst case they are damaging this investment in Caleb.  They also bring up the point that this is beginning to reflect badly on Poles (Eberflus, Waldron hires).  mpbears68 called this right after last season... Eberflus should have been fired then.  This entire mess is now a train wreck that is not going to get better.  It is going to get worse (can you imagine what the Green Bay game will look like in 11 days?  And the killer schedule after that game?  

I don't care if we lose to the Packers. (yeah, I can't believe I typed that either). I care about not losing CW at this point. What I want is to build a team that can go to the SB, and THEN I can watch as we beat up the packers. Right now, I just don't want al that has been done to get CW to implode

[JABF]

I know the Bears don't fire HC's mid-season.  Yes, it would be a really bad "rest of the season" with some temp worker riding the season out.  But I could see the possibility they HAVE to do this if things continue to spiral out of control with 'Flus clearly in over his head.  It is so "Bears like" what is happening now... it's the same cycle we've watched repeatedly here.  The worst part of this is the damage being done "developing" Caleb Williams.  He is regressing before our very eyes.  After the powderpuff game with the Patriots, it gets real and the competition will be at a whole new level than these teams we've played so far.  

They also talk about the "Football Operations" President/CEO Kevin Warren - maybe helping by taking over and making real "Football Ops" stuff if Poles can't do the right thing.

[JABF]

Nov 6, 2024 21:19:35 GMT -6 bearsinhouston said:

I don't care if we lose to the Packers. (yeah, I can't believe I typed that either). I care about not losing CW at this point.

+1,000
Caleb Williams is "The Guy" this franchise has finally acquired... best drafted QB since Sid Luckman was drafted in 1939 (eighty-five years ago).  It is all there with Caleb being elite, if the Bears can (finally) develop a QB here in Chicago.  His value to this franchise is priceless.  We see how much Eberflus values him (saw it last game when Caleb got injured in the final moments of a meaningless game).  This season has had only 1 primary objective this year - and that was to truly develop this kid right and not blow it.  They are blowing it.  Bigtime blowing it.

[mpbears68]

Nov 6, 2024 21:07:09 GMT -6 JABF said:

This is really good and worth listening to.  They talk about a LOT of things.  Just one is about how Caleb is getting sucked into the mismanaged QB cycle that ate up Mitch Trubisky, Justin Fields.  They talk about the damage being done that can break your QB.  They bring up some good points about how a guy can get damaged in a way he never fully recovers - "... that's the same old Bears thing."  Caleb is now 1/8th of the way into his rookie contract.  This year's offense is WORSE than last year's in almost every statistical category - worse.  How do you add all of this offense firepower and get worse?  Yes, part of it is the OL, a big part.  But it is also coaching.  They also brought up that Shane Waldron was on track to be fired by Seattle before they dumped Pete Caroll. 

Caleb is getting the crap beat out of him and he's in a horrific offense that has zero chance of working here. 

The players on offense are not stupid... they know the coaching is in a death spiral and 'Flus is going to self-preservation turtle-mode talking gibberish word salad stuff in the recent press conferences.  The players are having their own meetings (sounds like they are really emotional meetings too).  At the very least the franchise is wasting a season with the best QB they've had here in (arguably) the past 50 or 60 years.  Worst case they are damaging this investment in Caleb.  They also bring up the point that this is beginning to reflect badly on Poles (Eberflus, Waldron hires).  mpbears68 called this right after last season... Eberflus should have been fired then.  This entire mess is now a train wreck that is not going to get better.  It is going to get worse (can you imagine what the Green Bay game will look like in 11 days?  And the killer schedule after that game?  

There were two clear logical reasons to change HCs last offseason:

    A) Just to reset with a new QB so you don't have to change coaches or systems for a couple years at the very least

    and

    B) If there was a candidate available you thought was a clear upgrade (Hint:  THERE WAS)

Yes, I understand that canning Flus after just 2 years of an early rebuild is a bit of a dick move.  Year 1 was a total teardown and not his fault at all.  And Year 2 the team still didn't have a ton of talent and had a QB that couldn't pass the ball at all against zone defense.  But I'm sorry, this is business and the fact that Caleb Williams and Jim Harbaugh just happened to be available is just tough luck for Flus.  That trumps feelings.  You had a chance to add a 2nd major upgrade to the team at a hugely important role and you passed.

That is what pisses me off.  You failed to make a major upgrade when the low hanging fruit was right there to pick.

[bearsinhouston]

Nov 6, 2024 21:45:59 GMT -6 mpbears68 said:

Nov 6, 2024 21:07:09 GMT -6 JABF said:

This is really good and worth listening to.  They talk about a LOT of things.  Just one is about how Caleb is getting sucked into the mismanaged QB cycle that ate up Mitch Trubisky, Justin Fields.  They talk about the damage being done that can break your QB.  They bring up some good points about how a guy can get damaged in a way he never fully recovers - "... that's the same old Bears thing."  Caleb is now 1/8th of the way into his rookie contract.  This year's offense is WORSE than last year's in almost every statistical category - worse.  How do you add all of this offense firepower and get worse?  Yes, part of it is the OL, a big part.  But it is also coaching.  They also brought up that Shane Waldron was on track to be fired by Seattle before they dumped Pete Caroll. 

Caleb is getting the crap beat out of him and he's in a horrific offense that has zero chance of working here. 

The players on offense are not stupid... they know the coaching is in a death spiral and 'Flus is going to self-preservation turtle-mode talking gibberish word salad stuff in the recent press conferences.  The players are having their own meetings (sounds like they are really emotional meetings too).  At the very least the franchise is wasting a season with the best QB they've had here in (arguably) the past 50 or 60 years.  Worst case they are damaging this investment in Caleb.  They also bring up the point that this is beginning to reflect badly on Poles (Eberflus, Waldron hires).  mpbears68 called this right after last season... Eberflus should have been fired then.  This entire mess is now a train wreck that is not going to get better.  It is going to get worse (can you imagine what the Green Bay game will look like in 11 days?  And the killer schedule after that game?  

There were two clear logical reasons to change HCs last offseason:

    A) Just to reset with a new QB so you don't have to change coaches or systems for a couple years at the very least

    and

    B) If there was a candidate available you thought was a clear upgrade (Hint:  THERE WAS)

Yes, I understand that canning Flus after just 2 years of an early rebuild is a bit of a dick move.  Year 1 was a total teardown and not his fault at all.  And Year 2 the team still didn't have a ton of talent and had a QB that couldn't pass the ball at all against zone defense.  But I'm sorry, this is business and the fact that Caleb Williams and Jim Harbaugh just happened to be available is just tough luck for Flus.  That trumps feelings.  You had a chance to add a 2nd major upgrade to the team at a hugely important role and you passed.

That is what pisses me off.  You failed to make a major upgrade when the low hanging fruit was right there to pick.

MP, I disagree on point A being valid. Not to say you are not right, I just don't see it as valid from my viewpoint. If you have a good coach, you don't reset just because you have a new QB. I mean, if you have a good HC, you keep him. I realize that was not the case here, but my point is that I don't think I would pursue A just as a matter of course.

Now, B is a different story. But I never really thought Flus was the answer anyway so I didn't have a problem replacing him on that basis. And yeah, it's frustrating because most of the time you have to divine tea leaves (or rubber chicken incantations) to guess who is going to be a good HC. RARELY does a proven winner of a HC become available. Very rarely. It was just a stupid and stubborn move IMO, but we are beating that dead horse yet again.

[The Marshall Plan]

Nov 6, 2024 21:27:29 GMT -6 JABF said:

Nov 6, 2024 21:19:35 GMT -6 bearsinhouston said:

I don't care if we lose to the Packers. (yeah, I can't believe I typed that either). I care about not losing CW at this point.

+1,000
Caleb Williams is "The Guy" this franchise has finally acquired... best drafted QB since Sid Luckman was drafted in 1939 (eighty-five years ago).  It is all there with Caleb being elite, if the Bears can (finally) develop a QB here in Chicago.  His value to this franchise is priceless.  We see how much Eberflus values him (saw it last game when Caleb got injured in the final moments of a meaningless game).  This season has had only 1 primary objective this year - and that was to truly develop this kid right and not blow it.  They are blowing it.  Bigtime blowing it.

While I had hopes of a playoff run this year, which at the beginning of the season did look entirely possible, you're right that the Big Picture goal is to protect and develop Caleb at all costs.

At least the path forward looks crystal clear: Fire Eberflus and use all four of those picks in the first three rounds on the OL.

This team forces you to always "look on the bright side" and there are things to be happy about for 2025. Our draft position is excellent and we have a ton of cap space.

For the remainder of this season my focus has now shifted from winning games to Caleb's development.

In that respect I want him to avoid injury, but as a QB I want him to demonstrate that he can hit the deep ball with regularity.

He reads defenses really well. He can extend plays without turning everything into a run. His short to intermediate accuracy is really good.

We have our QB; that search is over. Now we need to continue to build around him.

[JABF]

Nov 7, 2024 3:13:12 GMT -6 The Marshall Plan said:

Nov 6, 2024 21:27:29 GMT -6 JABF said:

+1,000
Caleb Williams is "The Guy" this franchise has finally acquired... best drafted QB since Sid Luckman was drafted in 1939 (eighty-five years ago).  It is all there with Caleb being elite, if the Bears can (finally) develop a QB here in Chicago.  His value to this franchise is priceless.  We see how much Eberflus values him (saw it last game when Caleb got injured in the final moments of a meaningless game).  This season has had only 1 primary objective this year - and that was to truly develop this kid right and not blow it.  They are blowing it.  Bigtime blowing it.

While I had hopes of a playoff run this year, which at the beginning of the season did look entirely possible, you're right that the Big Picture goal is to protect and develop Caleb at all costs.

At least the path forward looks crystal clear: Fire Eberflus and use all four of those picks in the first three rounds on the OL.

This team forces you to always "look on the bright side" and there are things to be happy about for 2025. Our draft position is excellent and we have a ton of cap space.

For the remainder of this season my focus has now shifted from winning games to Caleb's development.

In that respect I want him to avoid injury, but as a QB I want him to demonstrate that he can hit the deep ball with regularity.

He reads defenses really well. He can extend plays without turning everything into a run. His short to intermediate accuracy is really good.

We have our QB; that search is over. Now we need to continue to build around him.

+1
You can see these rookie QBs regress as they take a physical beating.  Over time they lose what they had in college as far as seeing the field and delivering those beautiful deep passes with accuracy.  They begin to regress.  Courtney Cronin and the others picked up on this and talked about how some of this damage at the very beginning of a rookie QB's career is never overcome.  Some of the damage is permanent.  I so agree with that.  Later we can say (as Bears fans) rationalize and go into denial mode saying that these quarterbacks never really had the talent. 

But then I have to wonder how over 40 different Bears starting quarterbacks could "all" be lacking the talent... I will never believe that.  Some probably did lack talent.  Some were ruined here due to the systemic dysfunction of the Chicago Bears.    

I do believe there is damage incurred when these kids come to the Bears and get abused by bad coaching and poor offensive line protection.  In the video they describe it as the Bears cycle of quarterback failure.  It is what the Chicago Bears do to these kids.

And then we wonder why the Bears suck.  Their offenses suck.  Their quarterbacks fail.  We need the franchise to break this cycle of QB failure.  They need to get coaches who can coach - especially coaches who can build a modern NFL offense - and also develop a young QB.  And we need a GM who understands how important the offensive line is to a young QB.  riczaj01 is not wrong about the importance of the offensive line to success.  That is the foundation of the building.  If the foundation is weak and rotten then nothing you build on that foundation is going to be good.  If Poles can't get this done in 2025 then I'm wanting a new GM who CAN get it done.

[mpbears68]

Nov 6, 2024 22:12:26 GMT -6 bearsinhouston said:

Nov 6, 2024 21:45:59 GMT -6 mpbears68 said:

There were two clear logical reasons to change HCs last offseason:

    A) Just to reset with a new QB so you don't have to change coaches or systems for a couple years at the very least

    and

    B) If there was a candidate available you thought was a clear upgrade (Hint:  THERE WAS)

Yes, I understand that canning Flus after just 2 years of an early rebuild is a bit of a dick move.  Year 1 was a total teardown and not his fault at all.  And Year 2 the team still didn't have a ton of talent and had a QB that couldn't pass the ball at all against zone defense.  But I'm sorry, this is business and the fact that Caleb Williams and Jim Harbaugh just happened to be available is just tough luck for Flus.  That trumps feelings.  You had a chance to add a 2nd major upgrade to the team at a hugely important role and you passed.

That is what pisses me off.  You failed to make a major upgrade when the low hanging fruit was right there to pick.

MP, I disagree on point A being valid. Not to say you are not right, I just don't see it as valid from my viewpoint. If you have a good coach, you don't reset just because you have a new QB. I mean, if you have a good HC, you keep him. I realize that was not the case here, but my point is that I don't think I would pursue A just as a matter of course.

Now, B is a different story. But I never really thought Flus was the answer anyway so I didn't have a problem replacing him on that basis. And yeah, it's frustrating because most of the time you have to divine tea leaves (or rubber chicken incantations) to guess who is going to be a good HC. RARELY does a proven winner of a HC become available. Very rarely. It was just a stupid and stubborn move IMO, but we are beating that dead horse yet again.

I don't disagree in theory.

But Flus did not meet the definition of a "good coach".  Forget about 2022 -- he gets a full pass there.  Lets just look at 2023.  The offense sucked again that year.  We started 0-4.  The OC he hired was a mess (and has already been fired this year from his new gig).  We went 2-4 in division and one of those wins was against Josh Dobbs...and we still barely came out on top.  We also had 3 spectacular 4th Q meltdown losses including one in which Flus dropped a D-Tackle into coverage on a key 3rd down play.

There was nothing about Flus in 2023 that screamed "high level head coach".  The only thing going for him was that the defense got better but that didn't really really happen until Sweat arrived and that side of the ball had most of the talent.

I know some people poo-poo the idea of having an "offensive head coach".  I think its really important for a new QB cuz otherwise your OC tends to hired away if he is successful and the QB has to learn a new system.  Yeah, if I'm re-setting with a new QB, then I strongly prefer an offensive head coach, particularly if my current defensive head coach hasn't been able to find a good, successful OC.

Regardless, I agree that the most important factor is availability of a clear upgrade.  I won't beat a dead horse here, but JH was a clear upgrade over Flus in every possible facet.  THAT is why you make the move.

To not do so is like sticking with Braxton Jones when there's a Pro-Bowl LT out there available.  

[malagabears]

Johnson may not want this org anyway, who knows what will happen. 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️

x.com/jacobinfante24/status/1854570034791956612?t=qiKg0g08TaW14wYB51y58w&s=19