Fixing the OL

[davidl]

Nov 19, 2024 11:59:05 GMT -6 JABF said:

Nov 19, 2024 11:09:42 GMT -6 mpbears68 said:

I think you're gonna have to do both.  Draft and sign.  

You need to upgrade all 3 iOL positions and possibly LT as well, depending on how things fall.  You can't count on getting 3+ Day 1 starters from the draft.  And do you feel good about starting a rookie C in Caleb year 2?  Seems to me should have tried that this year if you were gonna do it.  I dunno, but I would have no problem with signing Trey Smith and a good vet C, then drafting two more OLs--one G and one T.

I agree.  It's usually not good to start more than one rookie per year on the OL.  Yes, there are exceptions.  This is why it's best to give some love to that OL every year - so you don't end up like the Bears.  But this is where the team finds itself.  I like what the Chargers have done, adding a stud a year for the last few years.  I'm not saying they have a perfect OL, but I like the method there.  They have a very young OL of ascending talents.  Watch what Harbaugh does with that offense behind that OL over the years.

I could see the Bears drafting their C of the future (a legit stud), and playing him at G for the first season.  He could still be a very valuable asset as a G for one year.  That would allow the team to have a vet next year instead of giving Caleb a rookie C.  Neither tackle is performing at the level they should be.  Wright has performed worse than Brax.  He's given up 5 sacks, 5 penalties, and allowed 21 pressures.  I'm beginning to think we have a G here for the future.  LOL, I hate to admit davidl was right about the slow feet thing.  But I think he very well is correct and Wright isn't a tackle.  Brax on the other hand, is "okay" as a T and maybe can continue to get a bit better.  Brax does have the quickness and intelligence to play the position.  By his own admission he needs to improve his technique.  

You add it all up and we need at least three starters: 1 tackle, 1 center and 1 guard at a minimum (assuming they can slide Wright over to be a G).  Now, maybe Wright is fixable.  I don't know.  He is still young so maybe he can clean up his footwork and technique.  Is Brax the long-term answer at LT?  Do you give him the big payday and anoint him the guy?  I don't know that either.  You're right that Jenkins needs to go.  Bates was never really "here" to begin with, but he needs to go also.  Shelton?  I hate to admit it, but he has had 5 of the last 6 games that he played much better pass protection.  He is not the long term answer there at C, but maybe he stays one more season and the new kid we draft plays G that first season.  I know Shelton was horrific the first number of games but he has improved quite a bit.

Amegadjie is such a wildcard in picture. It’s a shame that he’s constantly injured so we have no idea of his potential.

Poles needs to load up on OL this off-season but should not go in with a fixed plan. Stay with his favorite word “flexibility.”  It all depends on who’s available at what price in FA and what’s available when we’re on the clock in the draft. Let’s just hope he can do better.  

If he can hit a home run, it’s not inconceivable that we could be Super Bowl ready in 2025, assuming Williams is a “generational talent” held back by his OL and poor coaching.

[brasilbear]

[JABF]

Nov 19, 2024 12:37:47 GMT -6 davidl said:

Amegadjie is such a wildcard in picture. It’s a shame that he’s constantly injured so we have no idea of his potential.

Amegadjie seems to be a gamble draft pick.  He was the #75 overall pick of the draft.  Worst case they can ship him down to Panama with Ryan Bates for more experimental stem cell stuff.  So there's that I guess...

[The Marshall Plan]

Nov 19, 2024 11:09:42 GMT -6 mpbears68 said:

Nov 19, 2024 7:23:20 GMT -6 The Marshall Plan said:

Why do I need to pay an FA big money to a G or T when I have four picks in the first three rounds of the draft?

I will pay a stud center. The line needs a leader and that comes from a veteran. Outside of that we have all the draft picks we need to build the OL.

The thing rank and file (not you guys) Bears fans need to understand is that 2025 needs to be an extremely boring draft where it’s all OL in those three rounds.

We need to get 2 starters with some mix of LT, LG and RG and then we need bench guys for development and insurance.

I think you're gonna have to do both.  Draft and sign.  

You need to upgrade all 3 iOL positions and possibly LT as well, depending on how things fall.  You can't count on getting 3+ Day 1 starters from the draft.  And do you feel good about starting a rookie C in Caleb year 2?  Seems to me should have tried that this year if you were gonna do it.  I dunno, but I would have no problem with signing Trey Smith and a good vet C, then drafting two more OLs--one G and one T.

Can the Leader of an OL be a G? Besides, you know, SKILL, this OL has no leadership. No Olin Kreutz to break skulls if somebody is slacking.

The most rookies I feel comfortable starting is 2. 3 is a recipe for disaster. I do not want a rookie C because I view that as a leadership role and I want to pay a veteran for that.

We are going to have a ton of cap space in 2025. We are not cost constrained here in any way. There is money to sign both a G and a C.

Now say we sign a G and a C. I view signing a C as Priority One. TBH with you, if a Pro Bowl or top tier guy could be had in a trade (doubtful) I will pay it. Anyway, what do you do in the draft?

We need four OL starters. Four! Sign two draft two?

FA comes before the draft. If we are successful and sign Smith and a C then we can hold onto the 14th overall (guessing) and go BPA OL. Taking a franchise G at 14 is 100% fine with me. 14 may be too low for franchise LT.

Then again, if we are successful in FA, that gives us room to take a swing in the draft. Trade the 14 and a second or third to move up into the top ten and get that LT.

[JABF]

Nov 19, 2024 13:04:25 GMT -6 The Marshall Plan said:

Nov 19, 2024 11:09:42 GMT -6 mpbears68 said:

I think you're gonna have to do both.  Draft and sign.  

You need to upgrade all 3 iOL positions and possibly LT as well, depending on how things fall.  You can't count on getting 3+ Day 1 starters from the draft.  And do you feel good about starting a rookie C in Caleb year 2?  Seems to me should have tried that this year if you were gonna do it.  I dunno, but I would have no problem with signing Trey Smith and a good vet C, then drafting two more OLs--one G and one T.

Can the Leader of an OL be a G? Besides, you know, SKILL, this OL has no leadership. No Olin Kreutz to break skulls if somebody is slacking.

The most rookies I feel comfortable starting is 2. 3 is a recipe for disaster. I do not want a rookie C because I view that as a leadership role and I want to pay a veteran for that.

We are going to have a ton of cap space in 2025. We are not cost constrained here in any way. There is money to sign both a G and a C.

Now say we sign a G and a C. I view signing a C as Priority One. TBH with you, if a Pro Bowl or top tier guy could be had in a trade (doubtful) I will pay it. Anyway, what do you do in the draft?

We need four OL starters. Four! Sign two draft two?

FA comes before the draft. If we are successful and sign Smith and a C then we can hold onto the 14th overall (guessing) and go BPA OL. Taking a franchise G at 14 is 100% fine with me. 14 may be too low for franchise LT.

Then again, if we are successful in FA, that gives us room to take a swing in the draft. Trade the 14 and a second or third to move up into the top ten and get that LT.

+1
One thought that did not occur to me until today is the fact that the new head coach will come with his own grocery shopping list.  So who knows how the OL will end up in 2025.  One name being kicked around for HC is Vrabel who runs a 3-4 defense.  You know the D is going to get some of the top resources if a guy like that is hired in 2025.  He is going to want some power over personnel decisions (and should have that if we want him to succeed here).  I'm all for new coaches next year, but the change comes with a reset to some degree with new schemes, players, and probably around 24 new coaches.  I'm not complaining but just thinking this morning about the reality of yet another coaching regime change.  It's not all instant success.  

[mpbears68]

Nov 19, 2024 12:37:47 GMT -6 davidl said:

Nov 19, 2024 11:59:05 GMT -6 JABF said:

I agree.  It's usually not good to start more than one rookie per year on the OL.  Yes, there are exceptions.  This is why it's best to give some love to that OL every year - so you don't end up like the Bears.  But this is where the team finds itself.  I like what the Chargers have done, adding a stud a year for the last few years.  I'm not saying they have a perfect OL, but I like the method there.  They have a very young OL of ascending talents.  Watch what Harbaugh does with that offense behind that OL over the years.

I could see the Bears drafting their C of the future (a legit stud), and playing him at G for the first season.  He could still be a very valuable asset as a G for one year.  That would allow the team to have a vet next year instead of giving Caleb a rookie C.  Neither tackle is performing at the level they should be.  Wright has performed worse than Brax.  He's given up 5 sacks, 5 penalties, and allowed 21 pressures.  I'm beginning to think we have a G here for the future.  LOL, I hate to admit davidl was right about the slow feet thing.  But I think he very well is correct and Wright isn't a tackle.  Brax on the other hand, is "okay" as a T and maybe can continue to get a bit better.  Brax does have the quickness and intelligence to play the position.  By his own admission he needs to improve his technique.  

You add it all up and we need at least three starters: 1 tackle, 1 center and 1 guard at a minimum (assuming they can slide Wright over to be a G).  Now, maybe Wright is fixable.  I don't know.  He is still young so maybe he can clean up his footwork and technique.  Is Brax the long-term answer at LT?  Do you give him the big payday and anoint him the guy?  I don't know that either.  You're right that Jenkins needs to go.  Bates was never really "here" to begin with, but he needs to go also.  Shelton?  I hate to admit it, but he has had 5 of the last 6 games that he played much better pass protection.  He is not the long term answer there at C, but maybe he stays one more season and the new kid we draft plays G that first season.  I know Shelton was horrific the first number of games but he has improved quite a bit.

Amegadjie is such a wildcard in picture. It’s a shame that he’s constantly injured so we have no idea of his potential.

Poles needs to load up on OL this off-season but should not go in with a fixed plan. Stay with his favorite word “flexibility.”  It all depends on who’s available at what price in FA and what’s available when we’re on the clock in the draft. Let’s just hope he can do better.  

If he can hit a home run, it’s not inconceivable that we could be Super Bowl ready in 2025, assuming Williams is a “generational talent” held back by his OL and poor coaching.

I HATED that pick when Poles made it.  He drafted a small school, pre-injured project in the top-100.  He even said in TC that KA was probably a redshirt type of candidate.

You draft that in the 3rd round?  WTF?  That should be a 5th-7th round type of pick.  

Then he drafted a punter in round 4.  As good as TT is, that's also pretty rich.

I would call both of those "luxury picks".  The kind of picks you make when you already have a stacked roster.  It really feels to me that after getting Williams-Odunze in the 1st (nailed it there), Poles got relaxed, comfortable, and over-confident in what he had.  He even bragged in August how good his OL talent was.  

Rude awakening for him I hope.  Not that different picks there would have fixed the Flus problem but there were OLs available who could play this year and help (Puni, Zinter).  Ryan, please please please don't draft projects in the 3rd round, especially injured projects. 

[JABF]

Nov 20, 2024 8:42:43 GMT -6 mpbears68 said:

You draft that in the 3rd round?  WTF?  That should be a 5th-7th round type of pick.  

Then he drafted a punter in round 4.  As good as TT is, that's also pretty rich.

They are luxury picks for sure.  The Steelers got the best center in the draft (just my opinion) when they drafted Frazier at the bottom of the 2nd round... Bears could have easily traded up a tiny bit and landed him.  Dude is a legit star already.  Day-1 starter.  He is a holy terror, mean and nasty dude, just dominating D guys.  I read this morning that he is now considered the 11th best player in this draft (at this point of the season).  Poles rolled the dice on an injured dude (Kiran Amegadjie) with a fairly major surgery issue - drafting him in the 3rd instead of going after a guy like Frazier.

And the punter guy is nice to have, but we do have some significant needs beyond a punter.    

[bearsinhouston]

Nov 20, 2024 9:26:04 GMT -6 JABF said:

Nov 20, 2024 8:42:43 GMT -6 mpbears68 said:

You draft that in the 3rd round?  WTF?  That should be a 5th-7th round type of pick.  

Then he drafted a punter in round 4.  As good as TT is, that's also pretty rich.

They are luxury picks for sure.  The Steelers got the best center in the draft (just my opinion) when they drafted Frazier at the bottom of the 2nd round... Bears could have easily traded up a tiny bit and landed him.  Dude is a legit star already.  Day-1 starter.  He is a holy terror, mean and nasty dude, just dominating D guys.  I read this morning that he is now considered the 11th best player in this draft (at this point of the season).  Poles rolled the dice on an injured dude (Kiran Amegadjie) with a fairly major surgery issue - drafting him in the 3rd instead of going after a guy like Frazier.

And the punter guy is nice to have, but we do have some significant needs beyond a punter.    

hey, don't dis the punter

[davidl]

Nov 20, 2024 8:42:43 GMT -6 mpbears68 said:

Nov 19, 2024 12:37:47 GMT -6 davidl said:

Amegadjie is such a wildcard in picture. It’s a shame that he’s constantly injured so we have no idea of his potential.

Poles needs to load up on OL this off-season but should not go in with a fixed plan. Stay with his favorite word “flexibility.”  It all depends on who’s available at what price in FA and what’s available when we’re on the clock in the draft. Let’s just hope he can do better.  

If he can hit a home run, it’s not inconceivable that we could be Super Bowl ready in 2025, assuming Williams is a “generational talent” held back by his OL and poor coaching.

I HATED that pick when Poles made it.  He drafted a small school, pre-injured project in the top-100.  He even said in TC that KA was probably a redshirt type of candidate.

You draft that in the 3rd round?  WTF?  That should be a 5th-7th round type of pick.  

Then he drafted a punter in round 4.  As good as TT is, that's also pretty rich.

I would call both of those "luxury picks".  The kind of picks you make when you already have a stacked roster.  It really feels to me that after getting Williams-Odunze in the 1st (nailed it there), Poles got relaxed, comfortable, and over-confident in what he had.  He even bragged in August how good his OL talent was.  

Rude awakening for him I hope.  Not that different picks there would have fixed the Flus problem but there were OLs available who could play this year and help (Puni, Zinter).  Ryan, please please please don't draft projects in the 3rd round, especially injured projects. 

This all goes back to the fact that Poles considers himself a genius GM who can spot talent that other GMs have overlooked. He picks up lost dogs and overpays them. He drafts Amegadjie and punter higher than justified. He trades for Claypool. Etc.

I agree that KA is a developmental project, but from what I saw briefly, he does have some attributes that suggest he MIGHT be an NFL quality tackle, if given time.

When the Bears are out of contention (mathematically speaking), I want him to get some snaps so we can get a better evaluation. That would be a smart thing to do, so it probably won’t happen.

[mpbears68]

Nov 20, 2024 9:26:04 GMT -6 JABF said:

Nov 20, 2024 8:42:43 GMT -6 mpbears68 said:

You draft that in the 3rd round?  WTF?  That should be a 5th-7th round type of pick.  

Then he drafted a punter in round 4.  As good as TT is, that's also pretty rich.

They are luxury picks for sure.  The Steelers got the best center in the draft (just my opinion) when they drafted Frazier at the bottom of the 2nd round... Bears could have easily traded up a tiny bit and landed him.  Dude is a legit star already.  Day-1 starter.  He is a holy terror, mean and nasty dude, just dominating D guys.  I read this morning that he is now considered the 11th best player in this draft (at this point of the season).  Poles rolled the dice on an injured dude (Kiran Amegadjie) with a fairly major surgery issue - drafting him in the 3rd instead of going after a guy like Frazier.

And the punter guy is nice to have, but we do have some significant needs beyond a punter.    

Why do I feel like Kiran and Tory Taylor would have been there still in round 5?

Oh yeah, cuz they almost assuredly would have been.