Fixing the OL

[illinoiseric]

I like the Bears' young bookend OTs. I don't agree that Brax is behind schedule, or Wright. They're both about exactly what I expect right now, and not an impedance to Caleb's growth while they themselves grow. I totally agree with TMP that Center is the most critical thing. The issue is Shelton has been playing pretty well. And there is a capable backup in Bates. So I don't see Poles investing there. I DO see Poles focusing on both OGs this off-season... not bringing Jenk back because he isn't reliable and that is just not OK even though he's so good when he's healthy (could end up another Columbo-type loss).

Kiran is a prototype physical guy but could end up at OG next year and that might work out (with him also being a backup OT). They need at least one super-stud G and I think that should come from FA. Pay somebody you can count on a LOT Of money.

I think the major investment in the draft should be at DL, S and TE/RB in rounds 4 and later.

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[JABF]

Nov 21, 2024 10:21:17 GMT -6 illinoiseric said:

I like the Bears' young bookend OTs. I don't agree that Brax is behind schedule, or Wright. They're both about exactly what I expect right now, and not an impedance to Caleb's growth while they themselves grow. I totally agree with TMP that Center is the most critical thing. The issue is Shelton has been playing pretty well. And there is a capable backup in Bates. So I don't see Poles investing there. I DO see Poles focusing on both OGs this off-season... not bringing Jenk back because he isn't reliable and that is just not OK even though he's so good when he's healthy (could end up another Columbo-type loss).

Kiran is a prototype physical guy but could end up at OG next year and that might work out (with him also being a backup OT). They need at least one super-stud G and I think that should come from FA. Pay somebody you can count on a LOT Of money.

I think the major investment in the draft should be at DL, S and TE/RB in rounds 4 and later.

The foundation piece of the IOL is the center.  He sets the ceiling for that part of the OL.  In recent years a number of good coaches have made the IOL a higher priority than ever before due to the C and those guards setting the pocket for a QB to work from.  I strongly agree with that philosophy.  I would invest in the best C possible there.  The R.O.I. on that investment is immense.  Think 10+ seasons with a stud, and absolute stud - anchoring that interior OL for Caleb Williams.

Our only 2 Super Bowl appearances had stellar centers - Jay Hilgenburg in 1985 and Olin Kreutz in 2006.  Both of those OL's were special.  Build the heart-and-soul of the OL with a quality C and you have a rock solid foundation piece.

Shelton is going to be on the wrong side of age 30 next year and (at best) a near average C.  He was let go by the Rams for a reason.  He is just not that good.  When, in Chicago, are we going to realize "good enough" on the OL has never been good enough?  Haven't we learned anything here?  I will stroke out if we roll with Shelton (and his mythical buddy Bates the Panama stem-cell guy).  Cmon, let's be better than that.   

EDIT:  I would be okay with Shelton one more season if the rookie C of the future was a true stud who could play and learn the first year as a guard.  Then in 2026 slide him over to C for the next 10 or so years.

[illinoiseric]

That's all understood & fine - I tend to post what I think will happen in context vs perfect world. I agree C is most important position on the line.  But also so is continuity, relationships (with the QB) and experience (making the right calls & adjustments). And especially GM pragmatism because they can't solve all problems at once like we can here in posts. For example, I completely understand why Poles went RT last year instead of DL, and why he made the investments and bets he has right or Wrong.

"Wrong side of 30" is sort of meaningless and doesn't fit here. The Rams have cap issues, and have gone young all over the place for that reason (you said there was a reason, and that is one). Shelton is 29 and has been getting better & better since he's been in. That is not old for a OL in today's NFL. IF they are doing the job.  

This does not look like the most urgent problem.  Especially since he's rising on the list not falling.  Granted, a hard-core evaluation should be done regarding his relationship with baby Jesus.  Because everything should revolve around surrounding him with people that help him vs hurt.  It is just completely not clear that there is material reason for Poles to invest at C vs the two conspicuous slots at G in the off-season. He has to make choices. 

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[illinoiseric]

Coleman Shelton is an ascending, low-wear-on-the-tires, experienced Center. If he continues to grade better and better along with the trend, he looks to be a really nice scout job/feather in Poles' hat.

I see no likelihood of Poles replacing a success story - similar to the responses I had earlier in the year to people thinking he'd replace Brax who is one of his better stories. This stuff matters to GMs. Of course there is always a "what have you done to earn it today/this season" reality for football players on good teams. But when they're grading better with an arrow pointed up, suggesting they should be replaced doesn't seem realistic.

Hilgy was really good, and surrounded by studs. Krootz has developed a bit of a halo by virtue of him being so visible and talented as an analyst (while still having his tough guy appeal which people really like).  But as an undersized center he got put on his ass as much as Sam Mustipher.  Fiery or not. 

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[mpbears68]

Nov 21, 2024 10:21:17 GMT -6 illinoiseric said:

I like the Bears' young bookend OTs. I don't agree that Brax is behind schedule, or Wright. They're both about exactly what I expect right now, and not an impedance to Caleb's growth while they themselves grow. I totally agree with TMP that Center is the most critical thing. The issue is Shelton has been playing pretty well. And there is a capable backup in Bates. So I don't see Poles investing there. I DO see Poles focusing on both OGs this off-season... not bringing Jenk back because he isn't reliable and that is just not OK even though he's so good when he's healthy (could end up another Columbo-type loss).

Kiran is a prototype physical guy but could end up at OG next year and that might work out (with him also being a backup OT). They need at least one super-stud G and I think that should come from FA. Pay somebody you can count on a LOT Of money.

I think the major investment in the draft should be at DL, S and TE/RB in rounds 4 and later.

Brax is an enigma to me.  He's a really good run blocker for sure but still has big lapses in pass pro.  Sometimes he gets run over by bull rushers into embarrassing sacks (like last drive last week).  I dunno if we will end up with a high enough pick to get a premier LT prospect so he may be the starter next season for year 4.  After which, you can't kick the can down the road anymore.  

I hated the Kiran pick and still do.  5th or 6th round fine, not at #75.  That was a luxury pick on a project way too high.  Hopefully he can replace Borom as the swing T next year.

Center has been a revolving door of suck for years now.  Shelton looked really bad early on but I admit he has played well lately.  I think he's a FA so Poles is gonna have to decide whether to re-sign him, sign a different FA, or risk starting a rookie C draft pick.

Wright I'm not too worried about.  He has been battling injury all season so hasn't looked that great (Sweat same thing on the DL).

I don't see how you can pay Jenkins.  Yeah he may go somewhere else, get miraculously healthy, and be a pro-bowler.  More likely he is gonna be what he has been here -- a guy who misses 1/3 of starts and has multiple games where he starts but can't finish.  He was drafted by Pace so I expect Poles to move on.  Take the money you would have spent on him, add to it whatever you need, and go all-in on Trey Smith.  We need UPGRADES on the OL and he is a big one. 

Bates...can he play?  We don't know.  He has made only 2 starts this year and he didn't finish either game.  He'd be a perfect swing iOL backup guy but can he play?  I wouldn't count on him.  

Poles better be investing heavily (draft and/or FAs) on OL and DL this year.  Especially OL.  I'd expect 1-2 draft picks and 1-2 FA signings.  This can't go on.  You gotta put together a solid OL without fail for 2025.  Poles failed the team there in 2024.

[JABF]

Nov 21, 2024 11:33:46 GMT -6 illinoiseric said:

That's all understood & fine - I tend to post what I think will happen in context vs perfect world. I agree C is most important position on the line.  But also so is continuity, relationships (with the QB) and experience (making the right calls & adjustments). And especially GM pragmatism because they can't solve all problems at once like we can here in posts. For example, I completely understand why Poles went RT last year instead of DL, and why he made the investments and bets he has right or Wrong.

"Wrong side of 30" is sort of meaningless and doesn't fit here. The Rams have cap issues, and have gone young all over the place for that reason (you said there was a reason, and that is one). Shelton is 29 and has been getting better & better since he's been in. That is not old for a OL in today's NFL. IF they are doing the job.  

This does not look like the most urgent problem.  Especially since he's rising on the list not falling.  Granted, a hard-core evaluation should be done regarding his relationship with baby Jesus.  Because everything should revolve around surrounding him with people that help him vs hurt.  It is just completely not clear that there is material reason for Poles to invest at C vs the two conspicuous slots at G in the off-season. He has to make choices. 

Take what I say with a grain of salt.  Admittedly, I'm like that little boy looking forward to Christmas who wants the Red Rider BB Gun (a center).  On a serious note, I am so envious of the teams like the Lions who value the linemen. DL and OL can elevate the play of those around them.  I've always felt they were a good investment too, when you consider their multiplier factor.  And in particular I've loved watching great centers play Like Hilgy, Saturday, Olin, Mawae, or old school guys like Steeler Mike Webster and Green Bay's Ringo, etc.  Those guys were masters at their craft and really benefited those around them.  The crazy thing is the fact that you can often get the best C in the draft in rounds 2 or 3... the Steelers did that with Frazier this past draft.  And C's often last well past a decade of play.  And often they do begin at G at first and then slide over to the C position.  

[illinoiseric]

Nov 21, 2024 12:27:45 GMT -6 mpbears68 said:

Nov 21, 2024 10:21:17 GMT -6 illinoiseric said:

I hated the Kiran pick and still do.  5th or 6th round fine, not at #75.  That was a luxury pick on a project way too high.  Hopefully he can replace Borom as the swing T next year.

Center has been a revolving door of suck for years now.  Shelton looked really bad early on but I admit he has played well lately.  I think he's a FA so Poles is gonna have to decide whether to re-sign him, sign a different FA, or risk starting a rookie C draft pick.

Poles loves his physical prototypes with the RAS, doesn't he?  

Shit I was mixing up Bates and Shelton contracts.  Shelton is indeed a FA.  Then it really comes down to that assessment of his trajectory and relationship with the kid. If they think the skill is there at the right level and the kid likes him, I still think there's a good chance he returns on a new contract.  But a big FA splash does look more likely given the contract.  

I do think the draft is going to be defense centric with DL and also definitely safety.

[shark86]

Nov 21, 2024 14:43:58 GMT -6 illinoiseric said:

Nov 21, 2024 12:27:45 GMT -6 mpbears68 said:

I hated the Kiran pick and still do.  5th or 6th round fine, not at #75.  That was a luxury pick on a project way too high.  Hopefully he can replace Borom as the swing T next year.

Center has been a revolving door of suck for years now.  Shelton looked really bad early on but I admit he has played well lately.  I think he's a FA so Poles is gonna have to decide whether to re-sign him, sign a different FA, or risk starting a rookie C draft pick.

Poles loves his physical prototypes with the RAS, doesn't he?  

Shit I was mixing up Bates and Shelton contracts.  Shelton is indeed a FA.  Then it really comes down to that assessment of his trajectory and relationship with the kid. If they think the skill is there at the right level and the kid likes him, I still think there's a good chance he returns on a new contract.  But a big FA splash does look more likely given the contract.  

I do think the draft is going to be defense centric with DL and also definitely safety.

Unfortunately it looks like we need to replace Brisker. He needs to retire before he turns into a vegetable. So many needs, so few picks. We need a really good FA for the Oline if nothing else.

[JABF]

Nov 21, 2024 11:43:43 GMT -6 illinoiseric said:

But as an undersized center he got put on his ass as much as Sam Mustipher.  Fiery or not. 

You kept my attention until I got to that comment.  Olin Kreutz is a 6x Pro Bowl C on the NFL All-Decade Team.  He was a brilliant technician at center as well as being one powerful dude.  I always thought part of his skill set was developed from being a state heavyweight champion in high school.  

He was one of the best centers I've watched in over 60 years of NFL ball.

Sam Mustipher has bounced around the league as a practice squad or backup C his entire NFL career (and I followed him in college too... I'm a Notre Dame fan, and have been since I was a young boy).  There is a world of difference between Olin Kreutz and Sam Mustipher.

[bearsinhouston]

I've got the solution here guys. After seeing what Warren has done on the lakefront thing, I think he should be our next C. I have never seen anyone hold his ground like Warren has. Come hell or high water, no matter what is happening around him, he is single focused and just keeps holding his ground. I think he is the man for the job