ESPN Drops Bomb About Ryan Pace and John Fox

[JABF]

Pace hired Fox.  If it's a bad hire, then that's a strike against Pace.  If Fox is pulling a Lovie and insisting on having too much power over personnel decisions, then we've seen that movie before.  Once Lovie got too much power over player acquisition decisions, the team went downhill from there (after the super bowl appearance).

We have a D minded head coach and a bad OC.  That reminds me of the Lovie situation too.
  
Fox looks just as inflexible and conservative as Lovie Smith too.

At the very least, if the GM and HC can't work together, then nothing good is going to come of that one.  It's a "fail" all around.  If they fired Fox and promoted Fangio, you still have a D head coach who knows nothing about the O... and now you have to find 2 coordinators.  One on D and one on O.  And is Fangio going to be any better HC than Fox?  Maybe.  But I don't know.  Maybe there is a reason why Fangio never got hired as a head coach.

And if you brought in a new HC, do you force him to keep Fangio as his DC?  That may not be the best situation either.

For me it just seems like a crap situation all around, no matter what they do, or who is at fault.  Just a bad situation.

[mpbears68]

Sept 27, 2016 20:10:22 GMT -6 @soulman said:

Sept 27, 2016 19:16:33 GMT -6 Whisky Beer Bob said:

There must be some rift. I mean the whole Floyd pick seems to have Fox and Fangio at odds....or is it Pace and Fangio....maybe Fox... I hope Virginia goes down and smacks someone for the mediocrity on the field

I'd guess that all depends on whose side of this Fangio falls.  I would tend to think that much like players, coaches tend to see battles with the front office as us vs them.

At issue at the moment if we theorize for a moment is if Pace fired Fox now the only guy he could look to as an interim coach might be Fangio and only if Fangio is in agreement with Pace and his plans.  So let's look for evidence of that.

Pace drafts Floyd possibly over Fox's objection but what about Fangio's?  Well Pace said Floyd will be bulked up to play at 245-250lbs initially which IMHO is still to small for a prototypical OLB in his scheme.  His guy go 260-270lbs.  Fangio says no Floyd will play at 230lbs or so like he did in college.  So that's a rather obvious difference of opinion right from the get go.

Later on when some media type asks Fangio to compare Floyd to Aldon Smith in his defense he scoffs at the idea pointing out the very obvious physical differences between the two.  Smith does weigh 265lbs so he's easily 30lbs heavier than Floyd and unless the Bears training and nutrition staff can figure out how to keep weight on the kid he may never even keep 245lbs on let alone 265lbs.

Finally just before the opener Fangio is asked about his plans for Floyd.  While he doesn't actually slam him he makes it clear that Floyd seems to be lacking in something which he terms as conditioning.  But it's an intentionally nebulous comment that could also be interpreted as the kid isn't big enough or strong enough to handle a starting role yet he started in game one over Houston and played 94% of the snaps.  Why?

If coaches decide who plays and they leave their best pass rusher on the bench I'd begin to interpret that as I'm gonna prove this kid was a bad pick.  If they liked him and really wanted him to succeed I would think the bring him along more slowly and spot him in ways he can succeed to build his confidence not throw him to the water to sink or swim.  Floyd has shown little pass rushing ability so far and Dallas completely destroyed him both against the run and the pass.

So you tell me.  Which side do you think Fangio is on?

Good thoughts, Soul.

i have no idea if Fangio is with Fox or against him but I do see this:  this isn't a typical Fangio defense in 2016.

VF was able to turn in some pretty solid defensive showings last year (how about holding Rodgers and GB to 13 points in Lambeau!) with very modest talent on the roster.  This year he would seem to have more talent but the defense has been consistently pass-rush-less and getting waxed for 10 straight quarters against very unproven quarterbacks.  

Something has changed.

[Deleted]

Well, when speaking of GMs, they either outlast the HC or go out together. Rarely is a GM sent packing and the coach survives. My point is that Pace will probably outlast Fox. When I thought Fox was behind the personnel decisions, I felt we were dealing with a waiting game. If the decisions are Pace, then we have a more serious problem.
Like most, I wonder where Fangio sits in all this. Losing Fox now is not optimal, but I can live with it. If we lose Fangio, I and fans will be upset.
Right now, Fangio can not be happy. His defense looks like a clown designed it and that can't make him happy.

[Deleted]

Sept 27, 2016 20:10:22 GMT -6 @soulman said:

Sept 27, 2016 19:16:33 GMT -6 Whisky Beer Bob said:

There must be some rift. I mean the whole Floyd pick seems to have Fox and Fangio at odds....or is it Pace and Fangio....maybe Fox... I hope Virginia goes down and smacks someone for the mediocrity on the field

I'd guess that all depends on whose side of this Fangio falls.  I would tend to think that much like players, coaches tend to see battles with the front office as us vs them.

At issue at the moment if we theorize for a moment is if Pace fired Fox now the only guy he could look to as an interim coach might be Fangio and only if Fangio is in agreement with Pace and his plans.  So let's look for evidence of that.

Pace drafts Floyd possibly over Fox's objection but what about Fangio's?  Well Pace said Floyd will be bulked up to play at 245-250lbs initially which IMHO is still to small for a prototypical OLB in his scheme.  His guy go 260-270lbs.  Fangio says no Floyd will play at 230lbs or so like he did in college.  So that's a rather obvious difference of opinion right from the get go.

Later on when some media type asks Fangio to compare Floyd to Aldon Smith in his defense he scoffs at the idea pointing out the very obvious physical differences between the two.  Smith does weigh 265lbs so he's easily 30lbs heavier than Floyd and unless the Bears training and nutrition staff can figure out how to keep weight on the kid he may never even keep 245lbs on let alone 265lbs.

Finally just before the opener Fangio is asked about his plans for Floyd.  While he doesn't actually slam him he makes it clear that Floyd seems to be lacking in something which he terms as conditioning.  But it's an intentionally nebulous comment that could also be interpreted as the kid isn't big enough or strong enough to handle a starting role yet he started in game one over Houston and played 94% of the snaps.  Why?

If coaches decide who plays and they leave their best pass rusher on the bench I'd begin to interpret that as I'm gonna prove this kid was a bad pick.  If they liked him and really wanted him to succeed I would think the bring him along more slowly and spot him in ways he can succeed to build his confidence not throw him to the water to sink or swim.  Floyd has shown little pass rushing ability so far and Dallas completely destroyed him both against the run and the pass.

So you tell me.  Which side do you think Fangio is on?

OT and not thread worthy but I have given thought to the fact that maybe Floyd is a safety experiment waiting to happen. What sayeth ye da-bears boards?

[Deleted]

Sept 27, 2016 21:25:28 GMT -6 @bearsinhouston said:

Well, when speaking of GMs, they either outlast the HC or go out together. Rarely is a GM sent packing and the coach survives. My point is that Pace will probably outlast Fox. When I thought Fox was behind the personnel decisions, I felt we were dealing with a waiting game. If the decisions are Pace, then we have a more serious problem.
Like most, I wonder where Fangio sits in all this. Losing Fox now is not optimal, but I can live with it. If we lose Fangio, I and fans will be upset.
Right now, Fangio can not be happy. His defense looks like a clown designed it and that can't make him happy.

Hopefully so BIH, hopefully so. What a year.

[Deleted]

Sept 27, 2016 21:04:06 GMT -6 mpbears68 said:

Sept 27, 2016 20:10:22 GMT -6 @soulman said:

I'd guess that all depends on whose side of this Fangio falls.  I would tend to think that much like players, coaches tend to see battles with the front office as us vs them.

At issue at the moment if we theorize for a moment is if Pace fired Fox now the only guy he could look to as an interim coach might be Fangio and only if Fangio is in agreement with Pace and his plans.  So let's look for evidence of that.

Pace drafts Floyd possibly over Fox's objection but what about Fangio's?  Well Pace said Floyd will be bulked up to play at 245-250lbs initially which IMHO is still to small for a prototypical OLB in his scheme.  His guy go 260-270lbs.  Fangio says no Floyd will play at 230lbs or so like he did in college.  So that's a rather obvious difference of opinion right from the get go.

Later on when some media type asks Fangio to compare Floyd to Aldon Smith in his defense he scoffs at the idea pointing out the very obvious physical differences between the two.  Smith does weigh 265lbs so he's easily 30lbs heavier than Floyd and unless the Bears training and nutrition staff can figure out how to keep weight on the kid he may never even keep 245lbs on let alone 265lbs.

Finally just before the opener Fangio is asked about his plans for Floyd.  While he doesn't actually slam him he makes it clear that Floyd seems to be lacking in something which he terms as conditioning.  But it's an intentionally nebulous comment that could also be interpreted as the kid isn't big enough or strong enough to handle a starting role yet he started in game one over Houston and played 94% of the snaps.  Why?

If coaches decide who plays and they leave their best pass rusher on the bench I'd begin to interpret that as I'm gonna prove this kid was a bad pick.  If they liked him and really wanted him to succeed I would think the bring him along more slowly and spot him in ways he can succeed to build his confidence not throw him to the water to sink or swim.  Floyd has shown little pass rushing ability so far and Dallas completely destroyed him both against the run and the pass.

So you tell me.  Which side do you think Fangio is on?

Good thoughts, Soul.

i have no idea if Fangio is with Fox or against him but I do see this:  this isn't a typical Fangio defense in 2016.

VF was able to turn in some pretty solid defensive showings last year (how about holding Rodgers and GB to 13 points in Lambeau!) with very modest talent on the roster.  This year he would seem to have more talent but the defense has been consistently pass-rush-less and getting waxed for 10 straight quarters against very unproven quarterbacks.  

Something has changed.

 Yeah is has J and I've been sensing it for awhile now.  It may also explain why Fox seems to be doing a lot of evasive CYA stuff and why the team is as unprepared as it is and even the players may not be keenly aware of there's been a disconnect between Fox and Pace.

If I had to make a bet on it Fangio is not backing Pace if there is.  He's old school like Fox.  Like I said it's a mess and that mess is getting even bigger.

[Deleted]

Sept 27, 2016 22:41:36 GMT -6 @soulman said:

Sept 27, 2016 21:04:06 GMT -6 mpbears68 said:

Good thoughts, Soul.

i have no idea if Fangio is with Fox or against him but I do see this:  this isn't a typical Fangio defense in 2016.

VF was able to turn in some pretty solid defensive showings last year (how about holding Rodgers and GB to 13 points in Lambeau!) with very modest talent on the roster.  This year he would seem to have more talent but the defense has been consistently pass-rush-less and getting waxed for 10 straight quarters against very unproven quarterbacks.  

Something has changed.

 Yeah is has J and I've been sensing it for awhile now.  It may also explain why Fox seems to be doing a lot of evasive CYA stuff and why the team is as unprepared as it is and even the players may not be keenly aware of there's been a disconnect between Fox and Pace.

If I had to make a bet on it Fangio is not backing Pace if there is.  He's old school like Fox.  Like I said it's a mess and that mess is getting even bigger.

Anyone think all these injuries we keep having are a result of all this dysfunction? Somehow someway?

[Deleted]

I'm gonna try and take this a bit further some on theory some on fact but as always facts first.

While I can't claim to have ever been a huge David Kaplan fan I do kinda like the way he cuts to the chase sometimes and won't let the guys on his panel go off topic or ignore what's staring them in the face.  So I listened to what he had to say several times over.

While the Bears will never admit to it if what Kap says is true about how Pace got the job subject to the Bears hiring Fox as HC it's not exactly without precedent is it?  Emery had to accept keeping Lovie for a year before he got the keys to the GM office and bathroom.  So while it's still just a rumor it has some serious logic to it based on that precedent they set before with Emery.  In that case I'd accept is as being more likely fact than not.

OK, so Fox is hooked up with an inexperienced GM by plan and once again Ted Phillips and or GMcC or both poison the well from the get go.  Once again there's plenty of precedent for this as well going all the way back to the tug of wars between Lovie and JA and neither loving the other but rather being stuck with each other.  Once Lovie got to the SB and got his new deal he was untouchable as far as the family was concerned. We know this now too.

So when does the disconnect begin?  For that we have to have some theories because we don't have all the facts.  Who really has the most control over personnel here?  Is it Fox or is it Pace or is it a kind of tug o' war with trade offs one giving in on an issue only to be looking for a quid pro quo on another and both trying to protect their asses and multi-million dollar jobs?  Whatever it is it's not working and if there's a chasm (and it sure seems like it) it getting deeper and wider.  So like I said we're beginning to look as ridiculous as the Browns both on and off the field. 

Here's some theories for starters and you guys come up some of yours too.

Marshall - This one I think was a joint decision that backfired.  Pace was anxious to turn the mess around that Trestman and Emery had created and Marshall was both a disturbance and a negative presence which he usually becomes everywhere when the team isn't winning and none of them ever have.  He even gets in Robbie's face and dings his buddy Jay who asked for him to begin with so he as to go.  That frees up cap $$$ to get Fox his pass rusher (McPhee) and Pace can draft BM's replacement in April.  All good so far.

I think Pace preferred Cooper and figured Oakland would take White or he could take Leo Williams if he fell to him.  I think Oakland busted his plan on a WR and he missed out on Williams so KW was his BPA but also a far bigger project than the other two.  Then he injured, out for a year, and training in becoming an NFL WR grinds to a halt.  First crack in the plan but OK until AJ misses half a season too.  Still we survived if offensively thanks to Forte some and some nice work by Cutler and Gase. It was Robbie, the D, and Fox himself who cost us two or three wins not the offense.

Forte - I'm putting this one all on Fox.  I think Pace shopped him hoping to get value for him before the trade deadline with an eye toward possibly doing the same as he'd done with BM replacing Matt with Ezekiel Elliott. No doubt we were interested in him and Drayton was his college RB coach so that plan made sense especially if it seemed he'd drop far enough for us to get him even if we traded up a few picks.  If Pace could have gotten what he wanted for Matt he may have been gone then but he didn't.  Now he has a tough decision to make.  Langford looks OK but he's not Matt and nor does he have Matt's leadership and letting him walk just to appease Fox will not be a popular move with fans.  But he relents thinking he's gonna get a shot at Elliott.

Here's where things get really screwy.  Forte's gone, Fox says he can live with Langford as one of his RBC but now wants to take a swing at C J Anderson when Elway doesn't move quickly to sign him.  Anderson is younger but nowhere near the back that Forte is and we're offering more money than it would have taken to keep Matt Forte plus Carey already gives him a similar style back who can run inside and he's much cheaper.  Now here's where it gets even hinkier.  C J spurns Fox and signs an offer sheet with Gase in Miami for less money.  Guess no matter how much Fox like him he doesn't feel the same. But in the end I think Fox got what I think he was really after all along.  He drove the price up to sign C J knowing Elway didn't have much excess cap to deal with and needed to sign Miller and Osweiler and in doing this he exacted a bit of revenge on Elway.

Crazy?  Maybe but not for an old school type guy with a bit of an axe to grind and he had one I have no doubt.  Now it comes down to how did Pace feel about all this?  If the plan was to go after Elliott why pursue C J at all or if not Elliott why not just keep Forte and his leadership and production and draft another RB later on like we did?  This is where stuff kinda stopped making sense to me and possibly where the disconnect begins and Pace starts wondering about this crazy old coot he's been saddled with after he talked him into letting one of the most productive RBs in the NFL walk.  Forte seemed puzzled too and didn't deserve that.  But Fox shows his true colors about getting his way and who he thinks is really in charge of personnel and the tug 'o war begins.

The Draft - If Elliott would have fallen to them or even gotten close I think they would have taken him.  He was a shot at getting a Payton or Peterson level RB but once again the draft didn't fall right for Pace.  If either QB had fallen to Dallas I think that would have been their pick.  Romo has been too undependable and too hurt.  He's like Jay Cutler South.  But the QBs are gone and Elliot is the next best offensive player on their board because they don't need OL.  They've taken care of that already and there are no pass rushers worth that pick including Floyd.  They had him behind Jack and Smith.

Both OTs Pace may have liked were gone as well as Buckner who to me was a better fit and the NYG liked Floyd (shoulda let 'em have him) but we needed a pass rusher and the pickin's were slim to once again Pace gambles on a not ready for prime time guy based on his upside.  Now if Fox and Fangio are looking for a guy who can help now and not another project I can see where this might have added one more step to the disconnect. Fox says very little about him and Fangio seems very lukewarm about him but nonetheless he plays him over Houston 'til Houston gets hurt almost as if to prove something to Pace.

Nobody is gonna talk out loud about this stuff because that's not the way it works in the NFL if you value your career.  Not players, not coaches, not GMs, and not owners but something ain't right.  There's a disconnect somewhere and there also seems to be some apathy on the part of the coaches because right now you'd think they'd be far more upset about this start than they appear to be.  Remember Ditka's broken hand in '83 when his guys started 2-4?  Or maybe it's just Fox's rep for being too laid back and not assertive or demanding enough coming back to haunt him and us.  I dunno but something is hinky at Halas Hall that's not being talked about because once again I sense a sinking ship just like I did with Trestman and Emery.  I think we'll know more by the bye week.

[motm]

Going around and doing a bit of research of Fox its surprising how much Manning saved his career.


- Fox's record without Manning was ( 87 wins - 92 loses )

- Fox has never had a back-to-back winning seasons as HC except when he has had Manning

- Fox has only put up 3 winning seasons as HC without Manning

- After putting up 1300 yards and 11 TD's as one of Mannings Favorite receivers, Fox let him walk to FA and got nothing when the Jets picked him up.

- After an 11 sack, pro-bowl season, Fox let Peppers walk to FA. The Panthers then went on to have their worst defense since Fox took over. Dropping from #9 overall to #26.

- He was also part of the brain-trust that traded their first round pick in 2010 to the 49ers for their 2nd and 4th round picks the year before.

- His best offense ever - without Manning - was 7th in the NFL. But mostly, with Carolina, they hovered in the bottom half on the NFL including: 26th in 2007, 27th in 2006, 30th in 2002, and 32 (worst) in 2011. So our 30th ranked O last year was not an anomaly.


After seeing this do you guys really want Fox here? I'm honestly thinking Pace was forced by Fox to drop some of these players. I wonder how much of the first round picks were even Pace's real choice? 



Why is it that he can hit a homerun on our 2nd round picks twice yet signing huge projects in the first. I think there is more going on upstairs than what we know. 

[germansbombedph]

thanks Soul, good write up and I Kind of agree with your thoughts.

If true, Pace has to fire Fox